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Edward Miyakawa Transcript Part 2
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TitleEdward Miyakawa Transcript Part 2
Time Period2000-2009
IntervieweeMiyakawa, Edward
InterviewerUhlig, Elizabeth
TranscriberOckert, Kelsey
SubjectJapanese Americans
Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945
Relocation Camps
Iraq War, 2003-
Geographic SubjectTule Lake, (Calif.)
Original CollectionJapanese-American Association of Lane Co., OR, Oral History Collection
RestrictionsPermission to use must be obtained from the Oregon Multicultural Archives, OSU Special Collections & Archives Research Center.
File Nameedward_miyakawa_part2.pdf
Full TextJapanese-American Association of Lane County, Oregon - Oral History Collection Edward Miyakawa – Part 2 Date: August 18, 2007 Place: Edward Miyakawa's home Waldport, OR Length: 00:49:53 Interviewee: Edward Miyakawa Interviewer: Elizabeth Uhlig Transcriber: Kelsey Ockert Note: (sp?) means that words prior, mostly names, may be spelled incorrectly [00:00] [EU] This is the interview with Ed Miyakawa. Ed, we're moving now into the beginning of the 1940s and the beginning of World War I. How old were you when World War… I'm sorry…World War II, when World War II started? [EM] I was born in 1934. So in 1942, I was 7 years old, heading towards 8. [EU] And you were living in Sacramento with your parents and sisters, brothers? [EM] Yes, I had, have one sister. She's a year older than me…named Carolyn. [EU] Okay do you have any memories of the bombing of Pearl Harbor or the beginning of the War? [EM] No, I do not have memories of that period in history. And I often wonder why and I. My personal belief is that because I was about to head through in the next few years was so emotionally devastating that I feel that my mind, to survive, suppressed it all. And even at this age and time in life and all trying to remember our evacuating, leaving our Sacramento home, and the train ride, and arriving Molarka (sp?), a temporary camp outside of Sacramento. And then being there for a month and being transferred to Tule Lake, is almost gone in my memory, and I personally believe now that loss in memory came about because of what I had to go through there. And will maybe share that story further along or however you want to do this. [EU] Did your sister and your parents share their memories of the evacuation and train ride and all that or? [EM] No. [EU] No? Okay… [EM] But anyway that's what happened; we had to leave our homes. And Walerga (sp?), the name Walerga, of course is a life time thing. It was a fairground and they put us into that – where 2 the horse and the cows were butchered and all that and we were there for I think a month. And that's where we first start hearing about Tule Lake EU Do you know, when your family went to your uncle's or other people in the community did they go with you? [EM] Yes, by this time there were no Miyakawas left in that area. My uncle Kay, that's, he was my dad Kay, George, and there was Agnes. By this time, Kay was back in Japan; Agnes Yoshiko was back in Japan. George became a doctor and I think he was going to medical school or something or other, so he was out of Sacramento when they came to get us. All the Miyakawa family was gone, except, his mother and father, my grandfather and grandmother were back in Japan. And so the only Miyakawa left was, my father. On my mother's side, the Shigenos (sp?), were still there in Florin, outside of Sacramento, and they all ended up in Tule Lake with us; we lived right next to each other. Jackamo Cheechem (sp?). And then four girls and sisters and then a brother and my mother. [04:59] [EU] Can you talk a little about your life in Tule Lake? This trauma that resulted…what was it like living there for you? [EM] First of all I do remember the barracks. I didn't know at the time how many barracks there were. There was 1,200 barracks and the barracks were something like 20 feet wide 100, 90 feet long. And then they were all divided up with partitions, very difficult living conditions because in the winter time, you know, sub-zero weather and in the summer time, there was no trees there, just tar paper barracks and they didn't have insulation, just two by fours sideways and things like that, covered with black tar paper so they sucked in the heat. And then the partitions they were like gypsum board so…You could hear everything through the walls. And our grandparents were right next door to us. [EU] Tule Lake was in Northern California, just south of the Oregon border, so it was basically desert? It wasn't mountainous? [EM] It was like a desert area and you know no trees at all, absolutely no trees. And then summertime we'd have windstorms and all that dust and sand and lava, ground up lava would be flying through the air. [EU] Then the winters then were fairly cold? [EM] Yeah, pretty cold; had a coal burning stove inside. They were all divided into blocks and there were, I can't remember how many blocks there were, but we were in block #26. I think there were 6 barracks and then the in middle, they had a mess hall up and then they had latrines and then a laundry room, and those were the things in the center. So if you had to get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, you had to go to the latrine. [EU] Did you go to school then while you were there? 3 [EM] Yep, they had school there, in barracks. [EU] Did you also have like Japanese classes? Or, Kenge talked about, after the English school, Kenge Kobayashi talked about after he English school then he would go to study Japanese in the afternoons of evenings. [EM] I don't remember that myself. [EU] Do you know what your parents did then? Were they assigned work? [EM] Yea, they had work. They created situation where the Japanese Americans actually grew things outside of the camp. I believe…I know they did that, I just can't remember seeing it or anything and my dad because of his high ranking, he was a foreman and things like that, that's what he did. And the interesting thing about my father, he was a very intelligent man, very talented man and one of the things I remember is that he took up, to kill time, he took up wood carving. And I used to have those, I always wanted to keep them. But after 50 or 30 years or whatever it was, I lost them and don't have and them anymore. But he got into it making little airplanes, like P47s, P51s 38s you know and little air craft carriers; he'd carve these things out and they were absolutely beautiful. He'd literally, carving with a knife and stuff like that. That he had this incredible collection and that's how he killed a lot of his time. [09:58] [EU] Tule Lake had a reputation, I think, of being more radical or activist camp; do you remember if there were demonstrations? [EM] At this time, can I share a personal story? [EU] Sure. [EM] I'm sure that these personal experiences changed my life and I…a funny story related to this is that, about 15 years ago or 10 years or whatever it was, I was with my sister and my book Tule Lake was a fairly well known book at that point before it was received as one of the 100 books of the last 200 years, when that happened I couldn't believe it, but anyway we were talking about my writing of Tule Lake and I'm gonna get into this thing in more detail, but my sister and I were talking about it and [phone rings] and Tule Lake was very well known but hadn't received that award yet. She said to me, "You know, you did a really great job writing that book and how long have you wrote that?" And we discussed that and then she says to me, "You know you ought to dedicate that book to Ken Mura/Nira" (sp?) Okay now I'll tell you who that was. And when she said that to me, I burst out laughing and then she came out laughing after me. And the laughter was so high-powered that it was a combination of laughter and crying. Now I'm going to explain to you why that happened, and what it was, because she was saying, "If it were not for Ken, you may not be able to write Tule Lake." Ken Mura (sp?) was the son of Mr. Mura and Mr. Mura, can't remember his first name now, used to always remember his name, was my father's, close to my father's best friend. And 4 he had this son named Ken and Ken was three years older than me, so then we get to Tule Lake. And by the time I leave Tule lake, I have developed 4 or 5 psychosomatic illnesses. I became a bed wetter at 8 years old. I developed a fear of the dark that I never had before, fear of the dark. I developed an obsession with matches, and I would steal matches and I almost started a major fire in Tule Lake. Because I got this obsession and I would get coals and I started this fire next to this barrack and all of the sudden this whole barrack almost started bursting into flame, and people started shouting, "Fire, Fire!" and I ran away and so then I lost my appetite, and I was a very skinny kid, and I stopped eating the food. And so my mother became very worried because she couldn't make me eat and I got even skinnier. And so I developed these weird psychosomatic illnesses. [14:35] [EM] And what happened was that later in life it gave me an understanding of who we are as Japanese Americans and as human beings. That here, we are persecuted like we were and then we turn against each other. And what happened was Ken, along with some older boys, started picking on me, and they made my life miserable. And I remember being in these barracks and then I'd look out the window and there were half a dozen guys standing outside of my barrack apartment waiting for me to come out. And we would play a game like "kick the can" and they would…I would be the guarder of the can and they would make sure I could never be anything but the guarder of the tin can. I just remember that, and I'd be sitting there trying to guard the can and they would distract me to one place, and they would kick this can and then the game wouldn't end until it got dark. And that is just an example. And then, they would blind fold me then they would have me walk with them and say "hey, follow me" and just kind of force me. And then I would step into this hole. I remember this and I pulled my foot out and it was filled with flour and urine. And, another time, they would take me and put me on this wooden horse it's just a 2 by 4 with wooden legs and they put me in there. I'll never forget this story: "Take the blind fold off!" And I'd take it off and I'd be in the women's latrine. Well that's not a big deal, but when you're a 7 year old, I was just infuriated! I'd come out and I'd throw a rock and hit Ken in the stomach and he'd come up to me and threaten to kill me, and all this kind of stuff. So this is just examples of what happened in my life in Tule Lake. So this is where that joke came in. And Carolyn says if they hadn't done that to you, you probably couldn't have written Tule Lake. But it became a very serious problem because it was affecting, very serious on my health, and I didn't end up being able to handle this urinating in bed until maybe I was 14 or 15 years old. So my mother always bought this rubber thing. I had to sleep on this rubber mat every night, [laughs], and change my pajamas in the morning, you know and wash this thing off. So it was a very difficult time for me, yes. [EU] Yeah……So even if you didn't understand the politics, you knew something was wrong and that was affecting you that way and having those people be bullies? [EM] And this is when I began to understand who we Japanese Americans were. And so, when I got into this writing Tule Lake, and I would call these no-no boys and I would call then and I would say, "Hey I understand you're a no-no boy and I would like to interview you because I'm writing this story of Tule Lake" and they would literally slam the phone on me. I found half a dozen no-no boys and their numbers and everyone did the same thing. And what it made me 5 realize, that, in my own personal experience, that the Japanese American experience broke down to events: the first event was the evacuation itself and the second event was the questionnaire the government forced on the Japanese American people because when they came up with that questionnaire— [EU] This was that loyalty questionnaire? [EM] The key question was question 27 and 28; and question 27 and 28 then divided the Japanese American people and if you were a no-no, you carried that burden the rest of your life. You didn't just deal with that prejudiced from America, you had deal with prejudice from your own people. [EU] What were those 2 questions then, 27 and 28? [19:37] [EM] And the reason why this loyalty oath came about was because there was about 10,000, something like that, fighting age men put into these concentration camps. So if you were a Japanese American in your 20s and you wanted, and you were a 4-1-A or 4-A or whatever it is, and you wanted to join the military, they wouldn't take you in. And they…what the government did was create another ranking for the Japanese Americans, fighting age men, and what was it? It was a number like 4-F and all these fighting age guys were that, so then they end up in the concentration camps. Well, if there's a dangerous group of guys to have in the concentration camps, it's anybody from 18 on to about thirty [laughs] and then the government realized they needed these guys to fight. So the government says, "We're going to do this questionnaire, so they created this questionnaire, and it's got about 35 questions or something, and it starts out like "Where were you born?" and "Did you own property?" and a whole bunch a questions about "Where did you work?" and blah blah blah and then it came to question 27 and 28. Of course and question 27 said "are you willing?" so this questionnaire was for the fighting age guys when it was first created and it said, "Are you willing to serve in the armed forces?" and then the next question says, "Do you quote your loyalty to America and don't want any part of the Emperor of Japan?" They actually mention the Emperor of Japan. And so the guy says, "Yes, I'm loyal to America." And "Yes, I'm not a supporter of the Emperor in Japan." And they became known as "Yes-Yeses." Okay, then a few became…there was a hundred different reasons why you became a "No-No." And so some guy doesn't want to join the military now because the parents and grandparents lost everything and his brother and sister all in concentration camp have lost all their money they don't know what to do. So he feels like he has a responsibility to stay with his family to help them, so he says "no" and then he says "no" to the other one. Or he says "yes" to the other one and he becomes a "No-Yes." And all of a sudden the Japanese American population is divided and then this is only for the military guys. But then the administration says, "Hey we can use this for other people, you know like my father, for instance who was not of fighting age and he was not an American citizen. So they kind of changed that 27/28 a little bit, so it fits in with my grandmother and grandfather and my mother and father. And so my father sees this as an opportunity to get out of Tule Lake. So he says, "Yes, I disavow any loyalty to the emperor of Japan." So he becomes known as a yes-yes and we're in the Tule Lake camp. So 6 that's what divided the Japanese American community, so it's the two events. One is the evacuation itself and the other is the questionnaire. And you know, only, well people have been working on there for a long time but still this prejudice carries on, even to this day, against the no-nos. So we became a yes-yes and we left Tule Lake and Kenge Kobayashi becomes a no-no and he comes into Tule Lake. [EU] But you never met Kenge at Tule Lake? [EM] No, ‘cause we were gone; probably just a month after we left, he came in. So I never even met him. [EU] You mentioned before when we were talking that you, in these day now, when you give talks about Tule Lake and you talk about the three Rs? Do you want to talk about those? The relocation, renunciation and repatriation. [EM] Yes, well, this is really my own personal view in the sense that as you already know now, I've been a real deep researcher about what happened to us and why it happened with all this information things that I have. So I'm the one that really breaks it down to the three Rs and anytime I give a talk now, I'm the one that always brings up the three Rs. And let's see, you said? Help me… [EU] Relocation. Renunciation and Repatriation. [25:20] [EM] First of all the Jap…the American term they used for us was "relocation" – they relocated us. That's what….that's why they take 115,000, 110, 120,000 and relocated us into ten different concentration camps. And then, again because I just finished talking about the government needs these guys to fight and so they have what they call a registration, and that's basically what it was, basically to answer this loyalty oath. Then, because of that, they created a situation where the Japanese Americans come up with a totally new term at that particular time in history and then all of a sudden you became known as a yes-yes, or a no-no, or a yes-no or no-yes. So it divided the people in all these things, so they were divided. And then if you became a no-no, then what the government did was they decided Tule Lake would become the one true concentration camp and what they were going to was they were going to start bringing all the no-nos from the other camps and transferring them to Tule Lake. So anyone like Kenge and his family, who for whatever reasons, anybody could understand became no-nos, they come from Manzanar and transfer them into the Tule Lake concentration camp and it became a true concentration camp. So then all of a sudden, Tule Lake is just totally divided place, between people who believe in one thing and people who believe in another thing and people who are classified this or classified that. And it just becomes an insane asylum. Because my father was a yes-yes and we left the insane asylum. [EU] I notice you always say "concentration camp." Other people say "internment camps" or ….that obviously is a conscious decision to… I mean. Why do you say "concentration camp" as opposed to "internment camp"? 7 [EM] Well you know, again, this is when you get into again human condition. Because the government never wants to use the term "concentration camp" because that's horrible because when you think about concentration camps you think about Germany and you think about the Jews who died there. So you know when you think about concentration camps that what you think about well, my joke is, well if somebody said to me "I'm going to give you a choice of going into a concentration camp and the choice is this: you could go into a German concentration camp and you can go into an American concentration camp" and so I would jump on my feet and say "American concentration camp! American concentration camp!" [laughs] So okay… so maybe that isn't quite the right terminology, "concentration camp." In my concentration camp you could go to the canteen and buy Hershey bars, [laughs] you couldn't buy Hershey bars at a German concentration camp, at least not that I know of. So maybe, the government doesn't want to identify with concentration camps so that's why they call it "relocation center." But, never the less, they had barb wire fencing and they did have machine gun manned towers. And the machine guns didn't face out, they faced in. It was a horrible living conditions, this terrible living conditions. And Tule Lake did become a true concentration camp because they were all "disloyals" there and it became like an insane asylum. And then they brought military people and then they brought tanks. Can you imagine tanks to guard 18,000 people? Then the military guys were out there and they were gone. And literally they brought tanks. So, okay, it wasn't a concentration camp, it was an insane asylum. [30:34] [EU] One of the three Rs was "renunciation." They were encouraged to renounce their American citizenship, and then there was the question of whether they were going to be repatriated or go back to Japan, go to Japan, or stay in the United States? [EM] After that loyalty oath thing, then the government passes a new law, and I mean there's no law in this country or anything that says you can renounce your American citizenship, I don't think so. So what the government did was that they created this situation where now you've got "disloyals." And then the government decided: well, maybe we ought to not do another law and allow all these disloyal Japs, if they want to denounce their American citizenship. So they literally pass this law, or whatever it was, so that people can renounce their American citizenship. So that, it pushes Japanese Americans one step further into this insanity thing that we have deal with so, we have to make this decision of whether we want to renounce our American citizenship or not. Why would anybody, anybody want to renounce their American citizenship? But then, as part of the human condition, all of a sudden, this is what we're doing. My friends, Kenge Kobayashi and his sister and his, her father. I'm not too sure whether her father was a Kibei or a Nisei or an Isei or whatever he was, maybe he wasn't even an American citizen; I'm not too sure. [EU] I think he was Isei, the father. [EM] So he had no citizenship to renounce, but his wife did. And then and then, you know, Toshiko's brother, you know, renounces his American citizenship. But why? Why are they renouncing their American citizenship? Who knows? So then they renounce their American 8 citizenship and they get sent to Tule Lake. So, the government is creating one in-step of insanity after another. And then what it does is it drives the Japanese American citizens into this insane form and have to make one crazy decision after another. Well we're all different so one guy says, "Hell no! I'm not going to renounce my American citizenship!" and another guy says, "I'm going to renounce my American citizenship." And so then there's that renouncing step and then the government creates the third "R." And they said, "Well since you're all bitterly yellow Japs now and you're all disloyals and you renounced your American citizenship, you're not American citizens no more, then we'll let you repatriate back to Japan." So then Japanese Americans had to make another critical decision: "should we or shouldn't we repatriate?" And this is where Kenge's story comes into it when he told me about it, powerful story. [EU] it's a story with his sister, about his sister Toshiko. [EM] Yeah, because here's this young girl, 20, and she's done everything now: she's put in a relocation center and she renounces her American citizenship and the next step is to repatriate back to Japan. And the whole family is going there to be repatriated because of the father and the husband, and here is this 20 year old pregnant girl and she goes along with the father and the husband all the way into this miserable condition of Tule Lake and she has to now make a decision whether she's going to repatriate. And here's this little itty bitty sweet Japanese girl; she's a very powerful young girl obviously, you may not know by looking at her size and looking at her and what she looks like [laughs]. And she stands up against her husband and her father and says, "Yeah you repatriate, I'm staying here." You know, and so that story is a powerful story because it puts the Japanese American experience about all these three Rs into a human condition story and that's why the story meant so much to me when I heard it from her because then it's not just talking about the three Rs, it's putting it on a human condition which was done by the Toshiko story. And that's what made it such a powerful story, and an example of a powerful woman Toshiko was, and so then when I hear about the story, Toshiko hadn't thought about this in 60 years, or whatever is was, and she was so surprised that I was interested in this. [36:10] [EU] And she now lives in Seattle, is that right? [EM] No, she now lives in Los Angeles. And so then just as part of the story, last weekend, or the weekend before that, Kenge calls me and says, "Toshiko is coming from Los Angeles and she's coming from Portland and we're having a kind of a family get together in Portland" And, let's see, Toshiko's son, was born in Tule Lake, that was the time she was pregnant, was him. He's coming from Seattle to Portland and he's bringing, he has a wife, she's a Caucasian wife, I met her and had a wonderful time with her. And their son and two daughters are coming. So that's Toshiko's grandchildren, so I said, "Oh, they're coming!" And he said, "Do you want to come and visit with us?" and I said, "Oh, yes!" And I already met Toshiko once when she came to Eugene. So then, two weekends ago, we're up in Seattle and everybody's meeting. They're coming to the Japanese American, that place up there, Nisei Legacy center. So I show up and I already met Toshiko, but I'm meeting her son, what was his name? Anyway, Japanese name; he's there, born in Tule Lake, and then his Caucasian wife and the children. I walk in there, and 9 then all of a sudden, "Oh, hi! Nice meeting you" and all sudden I'm dominating the conversation. And I later thought, "Geeze I hope I didn't offend anyone by dominating the conversation." Because of the setting, it triggered me into sharing sort of this Japanese American story of Tule Lake, and it was because I knew that Toshiko's son, who was born there, didn't truly know what his mother went through and what her uncle Kenge went through. And the three children didn't know what they went through. And Toshiko, the woman who's 86 years old never shared anything, her experience with them. So they're all curious but she'll never share it with them. So then I meet them and I'm triggered, so I run off in my mouth about this, but only about ten minutes, it wasn't two hours [laughs]. Then we all went out to super. Then I'm listening to the son and his three children and they're just absolutely fascinated, because they can't ever get Toshiko to tell the story. So I called Kenge and I'm going to send them all a copy of Tule Lake as a gift so they can all find out what their grandmother went through and then also what their father went through because he was born there [40:12] [EU] So then you're hoping to write a book or a short story about Toshiko? [EM] I'm writing, I'm working hard on a short story for her, to tell the story of Toshiko because I find it a fascinating story, that this twenty year old girl stands up against her father and she was going to give up her marriage, I thought it was a remarkable story because she's the one who saves that family. [EU] One thing before we end this second part here, you mentioned about, there's just a long legacy of yes-yes and no-no and animosity…is this still current today these questions about loyalty? And I wonder if you could talk about Aaron Watada (sp?) who was in the service. Is it navy? I believe? [EM] Not navy [EU] Air Force? Army? [EM] Maybe the army, Lieutenant, I have all that information downstairs too. [EU] He is serving, stationed up by Seattle and he is refusing to go back to Iraq. So I feel there is still a division in the Japanese American community whether he is loyal or disloyal, whether he should be doing that or whether that's his right, that's the whole point, the right to express your points and so forth. Could you talk a little bit about that and your involvement with that issue? [EM] Okay. Well, again, as I keep mentioning you know, I'm just blown out by who we are as human beings and what we call the human condition and but that's who we are as human beings. And here Aaron Watada comes into this thing again at this particular time in history and it's a fascinating thing to me this event of Aaron Watada. Because, here we are in this day and age, this period of history, we're not talking about World War II, we're talking about Iraq. And we're talking about a 25 year old man or 27 or whatever he is, and then he's a Japanese American guy from Hawaii. And my personal belief is that, this is a personal belief, that the war that we are 10 fighting now is a truly, truly evil war; that's what I believe, down here in my heart. It's not a war about helping people. It's not a war of saving people, or of saving justice, it's a war about controlling oil - this is my personal belief and other people don't believe it, that's fine. And then a man comes up and he's 27 years old and he's a loyal American because he believes in this country and he voluntarily joins the military and then he realizes what this war is about and realizes that it is an evil war, and he can't bear fighting in this war. And then what amazes me, is he happens to be Japanese American from Hawaii. So then he comes to Eugene and they ask me to give an introduction to him. [45:08] [EU] Was it him or his father? [EM] His father contacted me. Who contacted me? Somebody - I'm trying to remember the details of this. And how did they know who I was? Not sure whether they saw an article or whatever it was. But anyway, so all of a sudden I get involved in this because they want me to introduce him. And the introduction I made, and I have a copy of that, and can get it for you later if you want me to. It was very meaningful because, you know, I told you they wanted me is too reintroduce him later in the evening. Now the only thing that was interesting about this though, is that it brought up again who we are as human beings, and the Japanese American people are divided about: do you support Watada or don't you? And we're fighting against each other again. And then, two of my best friends Toshiko and Kenge, Kenge calls me and says "Toshiko is very, very disturbed about Aaron Watada." And she says that she thinks what Aaron Watada has done is horrible. I says I can't, I'm glad I heard this but I don't want to bring up the subject when I'm with Toshiko. And she's against him because she has a brother who died in, was it in Vietnam, Vietnamese War? She had a brother that dies in the Vietnamese War. And because she lost her brother she's against Aaron Watada. And I can't quite understand the reasoning behind that, but to me, it's the way human beings use our mind, we all got different minds and we use it in a different kind of a way. And so anyway, that's what it is, we're divided about Aaron Watada. And he only based it on, his stance, when he said, "Hey, I gotta do research about this war we're in now. Why are we there?" And if you don't research it, and you just say, "Oh, the government tells us that there's evil forces there, we gotta defeat these evil forces" then you're a supporter of the war, but if you do research, and then you start understanding why we're really there, and the lies that were being told about why we're there, then if you're Watada, you're gonna say, "Wait a minute, this is against the principles that made this a great country and can I allow myself to go over there and kill people over there when I know that we're being lied to and deceived? Can I live with this? Can I kill people and say, ‘Hey, this is for democracy. This is for freedom.'" When he knows it's a lie? And Aaron Watada says, "No."And only after he did research about why we're there, did he make his stance and then I think, a Japanese American guy? I hope that answers the question. These kinds of things just trigger me, right? [EU] Okay, this is good, this is the end of part two. [end 49:53]
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